Factors in Surviving Gunfights

[gerhard1]

C&P of an old post I made on the Kansas CCW forum.

It has been my observation that when those of us who are into guns start talking about the defensive uses of guns, the only thing usually discussed is the caliber of the gun. I have read statements to the effect that caliber is crucial. Some folks seem to feel like this is the main factor in who will win or lose the fight if, God forbid, one occurs.

Hopefully, we can use this post to shed a little light on the subject. So, I am going to give you the most important rule of gun fighting right now. It is

Avoid them!!!

In spite of the 'castle doctrine' law that was passed the same year as Kansas' CCW law, saying in effect that we do not have a duty to retreat from anyplace that we have a lawful right to be, it is still a very good idea to retreat from the scene if you can do so without endangering either yourself or those that you have a duty to protect. The gun, which after a long and arduous process, you have finally won the legal right to carry, is there to protect your life or the life of your family in the event that the use of deadly force becomes necessary. It is not cowardly to retreat if you can; in fact, it shows prudence and good judgement on your part.

So, we now come to the question of what determines who wins a gunfight and who loses.
There are four main factors in surviving gunfights (always assuming that they cannot be avoided altogether). They are:

1. The willingness to shoot, sometimes called mental preparation. The most powerful wondergun in the world won't do you a bit of good if you are not willing to use it if you have to.

2. Sound tactics; i.e. the use of effective cover and/or concealment if there is any available. Don't be like Dirty Harry in Sudden Impact, standing dramatically out in the open with your 44 Auto-Mag. If your foe shoots while you are doing something as stupid as this, that Auto-Mag might as well be a Jennings 22.

3. Bullet placement. A hit with 38 special beats the hell out of a miss with a 500S&W. Likewise, a 32 bullet hitting your spine is going to do more damage than a 45 in the muscle of your leg.

4. Caliber. This is the least important variable. About all a heavier caliber will do as opposed to a smaller one is give you little more margin for error.

So, don't depend on caliber as the most vital factor. It is important, yes; but other things are far more important.

I only hope to God you never have to use this knowledge.

 

[Red Baron]

I try to practice situational awareness when I'm out and about (probably a hold-over from Nam) to see if anything "untoward" is happening around me.

 

[Catt57]

Exactly!

1st rule of gunfighting: Don't get into one.

 

[Upsidedownjack1]

A number of things: the 21' rule. A person with a KNIFE CAN CROSS 21' Before 99% of people can react! If you Pull it, USE IT! This is not the time for "show & Tell"! Push me into a corner, with very little room to get out, I will Do everything I can To KILL YOU! The #1 thing, never on Purpose get into a Gun Fight! Someone will Die.

 

[gerhard1]

A number of things: the 21' rule. A person with a KNIFE CAN CROSS 21' Before 99% of people can react! If you Pull it, USE IT! This is not the time for "show & Tell"! Push me into a corner, with very little room to get out, I will Do everything I can To KILL YOU! The #1 thing, never on Purpose get into a Gun Fight! Someone will Die.

A question if I may: By use it, do you mean shoot?

 

[Upsidedownjack1]

A question if I may: By use it, do you mean shoot?

Really? Is that a Real Question? IF YOU PULL A FIREARM TO DEFEND, ONE SHOULD (kill) who ever you're shooting at! Fuck the trying to "wound them" ! You'll get sued, go to Jail and Spend 100,000,00 $$$$ trying to defend yourself from the CRIMINAL PIECE OF SHIT, OR FAMILY! All because (he) was such a miss understood GOOD BOY! Had a Very Poor Up bringing etc, etc, etc! Without fail, it will Be You who is Going to Jail. Good shooting: two in the body mass, one in the Head!
Stay safe and Don't get cought!

 

[gerhard1]

Really? Is that a Real Question? IF YOU PULL A FIREARM TO DEFEND, ONE SHOULD (kill) who ever you're shooting at! Fuck the trying to "wound them" ! You'll get sued, go to Jail and Spend 100,000,00 $$$$ trying to defend yourself from the CRIMINAL PIECE OF SHIT, OR FAMILY! All because (he) was such a miss understood GOOD BOY! Had a Very Poor Up bringing etc, etc, etc! Without fail, it will Be You who is Going to Jail. Good shooting: two in the body mass, one in the Head!
Stay safe and Don't get cought!

Calm down. FTR I am not one of the 'understand the poor criminal' types and NO ONE brought up the 'shoot to wound' vs. 'shoot to kill' question. I merely asked a simple question that your little tirade did not come close to answering. I will ask the question again since you did not answer it: by USE IT, do you mean shoot? A simple 'yes' or 'no' will suffice. You can explain your answer but an answer would be appreciated.

 

[Upsidedownjack1]

Again, what I thought I was saying was, If you pull a Firearm (to Defend) if you pull it (SHOOT) it with Intent! Do not threaten, do Not "show & tell". Shoot with INTENT!
Sorry to have pulled your chain!
Are you a LEO? Combat Vet? You might have understood. Most do.

 

[gerhard1]

Former armed security/private detective.

Your answer is to shoot if you pull it. Okay, then; what if the bad guy sees your gun is out and he surrenders or he runs away? What do you do then?

I had essentially the same discussion with another poster on the old Packing.org site. I asked this gentleman the same question that I just asked you in this post. His response was to the effect that he was so blindingly fast that he'd be unable to stop from shooting once he drew his handgun. Needless to say, he got a lot of grief over that reply.

So, I put the same question to you. What do you do if the BG stops the activity that forced you to draw on him?

ETA You didn't pull my chain. We're good.

 

[Upsidedownjack1]

You say (IF) he stops. Lays down his (gun) knife etc. Then the following is Up to you! I'm thinking you're making assumptions? The Person started something and All Of a sudden Quits, stop, the Actions of CRIME? Just because the6 see that You might have a FIREARM? Kinda late don't you think?

 

[gerhard1]

If the person stops whatever he is doing that caused you to draw, do you still shoot? It's a simple enough question I think.

 

[Upsidedownjack1]

Depends! Fault "stops" then Starts, once you start to let down your Guard? What do you PI? For me, I don't really forgive or Forget! I made the assumption of a Gun fight! Not, thinking of the Perp Quiting in the Middle? More clouds in the question? Do you turn around a "Walk" away? Do you carry Hand cuffs, Zip Ties, Duck Tape? I'm not a LEO or PI. Just a Normal walk around person!

 

[gerhard1]

Obviously you don't let your guard down. What I'd have done were I in this type of situation is call the police once I could do so safely and let them know what happened, just like I'd do now. I didn't carry restraining devices since I wasn't in the business of making arrests. If someone wanted to go, my policy would have been to let them go.

Earlier in this discussion, you brought up shooting to would or shooting to kill. My position is that I do neither. If I ever have to shoot in self defense, I won't shoot to kill, I won't shoot to wound; I shoot to stop. I don't shoot, even to stop unless I am justified in killing the perpetrator but my primary intent in using deadly force is to stop the action that forced me to shoot in the first place.

I don't take this position out of sympathy for the criminal but rather as a practical and legal defense for me. I will shoot if I have to but only to stop the attack. Granted my use of deadly force may very well cause the death of the BG, but that was NOT my intent. It was a regrettable side effect, and his actions forced me to make the decision, and I can honestly testify to that if it ever comes to a court action.

If you haven't done so already, you might want to read a few of Massad Ayoob's books, in particular In the Gravest Extreme. It is very readable and it gives a very clear picture of what I am talking about here. I attended his class when I lived in Seattle many, many moons ago even though I had to fly to Long Beach, California. I learned lot from his class and I'd take it again of he ever comes back to Kansas. Mas is a good guy.

 

[Upsidedownjack1]

Obviously you don't let your guard down. What I'd have done were I in this type of situation is call the police once I could do so safely and let them know what happened, just like I'd do now. I didn't carry restraining devices since I wasn't in the business of making arrests. If someone wanted to go, my policy would have been to let them go.

Earlier in this discussion, you brought up shooting to would or shooting to kill. My position is that I do neither. If I ever have to shoot in self defense, I won't shoot to kill, I won't shoot to wound; I shoot to stop. I don't shoot, even to stop unless I am justified in killing the perpetrator but my primary intent in using deadly force is to stop the action that forced me to shoot in the first place.

I don't take this position out of sympathy for the criminal but rather as a practical and legal defense for me. I will shoot if I have to but only to stop the attack. Granted my use of deadly force may very well cause the death of the BG, but that was NOT my intent. It was a regrettable side effect, and his actions forced me to make the decision, and I can honestly testify to that if it ever comes to a court action.

If you haven't done so already, you might want to read a few of Massad Ayoob's books, in particular In the Gravest Extreme. It is very readable and it gives a very clear picture of what I am talking about here. I attended his class when I lived in Seattle many, many moons ago even though I had to fly to Long Beach, California. I learned lot from his class and I'd take it again of he ever comes back to Kansas. Mas is a good guy.

Obviously you don't let your guard down. What I'd have done were I in this type of situation is call the police once I could do so safely and let them know what happened, just like I'd do now. I didn't carry restraining devices since I wasn't in the business of making arrests. If someone wanted to go, my policy would have been to let them go.

Earlier in this discussion, you brought up shooting to would or shooting to kill. My position is that I do neither. If I ever have to shoot in self defense, I won't shoot to kill, I won't shoot to wound; I shoot to stop. I don't shoot, even to stop unless I am justified in killing the perpetrator but my primary intent in using deadly force is to stop the action that forced me to shoot in the first place.

I don't take this position out of sympathy for the criminal but rather as a practical and legal defense for me. I will shoot if I have to but only to stop the attack. Granted my use of deadly force may very well cause the death of the BG, but that was NOT my intent. It was a regrettable side effect, and his actions forced me to make the decision, and I can honestly testify to that if it ever comes to a court action.

If you haven't done so already, you might want to read a few of Massad Ayoob's books, in particular In the Gravest Extreme. It is very readable and it gives a very clear picture of what I am talking about here. I attended his class when I lived in Seattle many, many moons ago even though I had to fly to Long Beach, California. I learned lot from his class and I'd take it again of he ever comes back to Kansas. Mas is a good guy.

Again, I think in some respects we're beating the Same bush. I had made the assumption "we" were talking about being in, or about to be in a Gun fight. Not worrying about the "Calling" the LEO, or getting a Lawyer before things get Heavy. So, from (only) that aspect, one is in a Place that there is No Backing away(?). And there is all of your Family, WIFES, Fathers, Children etc. all being Threatened by a Crazed Druged up did Shit! Pointing a Firearm at everyone! What do you do? No Phone, No Backup. Just you and Family. Get on your Knees and Pray (?) Or, if you can pull your firearm do you ask the pos to Please stop, drop his firearm and Please go away? Show him that You also have a Weapon, and (Might) be willing to shoot! To Wound, mame, kill? Or just for Show and Hope that YOU WILL NOT HAVE TO KILL SOMEONE? Glad that you have went and took firearm training for the Person you did. Very Good Instructor. Mine was mostly in Vietnam, 1963/1967, with People truly firing Back. Might be kinda different, think? Different mind set, different Rules! (NONE). Win! Number of people known that are/were LEO, Judges, City, County etc! Almost all VETERANS that have been in Real Gun Fights, Walked away. Some we have known have Not! Not because they were not Well Trained, or paused to Ponder the Legal BS! I'm sure that you can figger my Aprox age, being Old and doing just some of the thing I might have done, and Not in Prison (yet). One rule, Win! If can, do not get into a Place you have to Fight out of! PS, IDF also teach some very fine gun handling! As did Frog/Seal teams. Stay safe. And Don't get caught!️

 

[gerhard1]

Please let me make myself crystal clear. I won't ever pull my revolver as a bluff. If I pull it, it will be to use (shoot) it if I have to. That doesn't mean that I want to but I will if I have to.

Or, if you can pull your firearm do you ask the pos to Please stop, drop his firearm and Please go away?

You'll likely not agree with this but YES. Particularly if there are witnesses around. The reason is this: I want it known that I did everything reasonable to avoid using deadly force. Ayoob in his 1970's book In the Gravest Extreme tells us that when he was walking a rough part of town, he would carry in his pocket a $5 or $10 bill wrapped around a matchbook with a rubber band. If he was accosted by a gang of toughs and they started to hassle him, he would pull the money out and toss it to the ringleader and tell them that he didn't want any trouble and tell them to have a round on him. If it came to a point where using deadly force was necessary, his attempt to buy the other guys off looks great in court.

The PI firearms instructor whose course I took said to say to your foe that you don't want any trouble and please don't make me shoot you.

These are examples of de-escalation, which we should all learn. Cops will say to perps who are armed something to the effect that there is no need for anyone to get hurt here and to drop their weapon.

Granted, they don't apply in all situations--a robbery, for example--but in cases where the other person feels 'disrespected' de-escalation often will work.

In short, be prepared to shoot (mental preparation) but always hope that you never have to.

 

[Upsidedownjack1]

Gerhart, I think that in many way you have made yourself Perfectly Clear. Where you might try to Calm down, de escalate call the LEO. And in the same respect I won't., I've a.ready assumed that some, most of these thing have already been doneBut there come a Time where the "trying" to stop, does not work, You realize this and ACT! Do you? Or just "what"? Tired of watching People with their Cell Phones take Pictures, BUT DOING NOTHING TO STOP, HELP! Any of your Family? I think much of your training, and mine are Way different. Neither Wrong, but different! We're both walking around and May have been in one gun fight. Same Rules apply, there are NONE. Win only!